Mukarrib said...I have a Question Regarding the Beleif of Zaydis in Accepting Those A'immah(a.s)Who Call the People to themselves ,and Removing the Despotic ruler(Fasiq).The Fatimi Dynasty of Qayrawan had Removed The Oprressive Ruler,the Rustamiya and also theAghlabiya,Who Were Khawarij(l.a)and Vassal state of the Abassids.Now they also Instituted Islamic Law Based on the statements of Wasi Al-RasoolAllah Ali(a.s),The Imams(a.s)Hasan,Husayn,Baqir and Al-Sadiq Aswell As citing the Views of Zayd(A.S)In Medecine.Found within Zaydi and Ithna Ashari books.they Also Called People Thru a Dawah Wich Was Very Orginized to their Imamah,and they Fought a Good and Well jihad for the Sake of allah Conquering Qayrawan,Sham(syria),Masr(egypt)hijaz,and Yemen(PArticurlarly Under the Da'i Al-Mansur al-Yaman(R.A))and they not only conquered Yemen once but Twice (Later under the Da'i ali al-sulayhi(R.A))and they did indeed Call the Zaydis to the Imamate Of the Fatimi Imams(a.s)So what Kept the Zaydis From Reconizing The Fatimi Imams(a.s)?they Were Saadat and Fulfilled all the Requirements of the Zaydi imamate.
To Brother IRS:Can you tell me why Imam Ali (as) allowed a person like Ziyad ibn Abih to become the commissioner in Basra ? Letters 20 & 21 in Najh Al Balgaha give some details.http://www.nahjulbalagha.org/letters.phpAlso previously you told me that Sa'ad ibn Waqas (ra) is seen to be neutral light since he wasn't a shia of Ali. My question is what do the Zaydis say to his opposition against Muawiyah ? Do you have to be a shia of Ali in order to recognized for the opposition against Muawiyah.Imam Al Asi talks about non-shias who opposed Muawiyah. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcPNMhjcCmQWith the exception of Abdullah ibn Zubair what do Zaydis have to say about the other non-shia sahabis who opposed Muawiyah ?
Salaam Pro ahlul bait, you ask so many questions about Imam Ali, are you writing a book about him or something? Since you agree that he should have been the Imam after Muhammad s.a.w., why all the questions? I don't get it...
I just want to see how the Zaydis view these details of history. Plus Najh Al Balagha isn't covered in the Sunnis mosques. Therefore, we have to rely on the Zaydis to teach it to us. However, if there was a translation of Ibne Abil Hadid al-Mutazali's commentary then I wouldn't have the high number of questions. I'm trying to get Imam Al Asi to do a to teach it online, but nowadays he is very busy. Maybe our Zaydi brothers can take a step further, and give lectures on it on youtube. If any Zaydi scholars starts giving English lectures on youtube, then I can predict that the numbers of people becoming Zaydis will increase.
Is there any similarity on the way the zaydi make salat and the jaferi?and is there any similarity on the halal when it come to eating food?like the jaferia do not eat fish without scale?and they do not eat the meat by people of the book i think? can you email me i this firstname.lastname@example.org also is there any you tube or whatever showing the zaydi making salat?
Salaam Wali, here are a few tips provided by brother Awsmekka in an earlier post, hope it is helpful: "Salaat (prayer) the Zaidi way, for 12 Imamer Shi-ites:Part 1. Washing feet in wudhu:When you become a Zaidi, you will need to wash your feet in wudhu rather than just wiping them with wet hands.Part 2. Sujood on any clean surface:When you become a Zaidi it will now be permissible to make your sujood on carpet or any clean surface instead of it having to be something natural like a stone. This will help you not to stand out when praying in majority sunni mosques.Part 3. Athan and iqaama:When you become a Zaidi you will no longer need to add the line “Ash-hadu an Aliyyan waliyyullah” to your athan and iqaama. You will need to add “Hayya alaa khairal a’mal” to them both.Part 4. Tashahhud:Before saying: “Allahumma salli alaa Muhammadin wa alaa aali Muhammadin” you need to say “Bismillaahi, wa billaahi, walhamdulillaahi, wal asmaa ulhusnaa kulluhaa lillah”, then say the shahaadah as usual. Then if you wish you can add the “Allahumma salli alaa Muhammadin wa alaa aali Muhammadin” after the shahaadah.Part 5. Tasleem on both sides:When you do tasleem, you will need to say “assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah” twice instead of once, and turn your head to both the right and left instead of just the right."Apart from these monor differences the salaat is the same as the Ja'fari school.As for halal food, IR society will be able to answer this question here, stay tuned....
Salam do you have some pictures or videos of the Shabab in combat.i am Making a Nasheed Video about the Shabab to gain support.Wasalam alaykum.
salaamz to all!Thank you for your questions!To Br. Mukarrib:Regarding the Fatimi imams, it is true that they were saadat who established rule in the name of Ahl al-Bayt (as). It is also true that they were very successful with their dawah that stretched from North Africa even to the Hijaz. However, whether they actually fit the mold of the imamate according the Zaydis is a different story. In addition to being from Ahl al-Bayt and able to establish justice, it should also be that they accurately transmit the madhhab of their forefathers (as). Otherwise any sharif ruler could claim the imamate for himself. Just look at places like Morocco and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan! These places do not have Zaydi support. Because the Fatimi imams/caliphs did not establish the Zaydi madhhab, they did not have Zaydi support. History even testifies to the animosity between the Fatimis and the Zaydis. The chief opponents of our early imams were the Qaramatians. Even though this group was also opposed by the Fatimis, the Zaydis sought to distance themselves from those that they deemed Extremist Shia and Rawafid and saw them as not representative of the madhhab of Ahl al-Bayt. As a result, they did not support the Fatimi regime.To Bro ProAhlalBayt: Ziyad was appointed by Ibn Abbass and it is beleived that Amir al-Muminin (as) allowed it to allow Ziyad to change. However, when it became evident that Ziyad was a renegade, Imam Ali (as) had him fired. Regarding Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas, he is seen as neutral not because he was not a Shia but because he did not fully support Ali or oppose him. Hating or fighting Mu'awiyah is not a condition of acceptance. Remember that many of the Kufans hated Mu'awiyah and the Syrians even though they did not hold to the imamate of Ali (as). Also books like Tarikh at-Tabari record that when Mu'awiyah and Ibn al-As had Muhammad bin Abi Bakr killed, Umm al-Mumineen A'isha used to curse them until she died; yet, she was not in support of Amir al-Mumineen (as). Therefore, there is generally a neutral stance on the Companions who did not fight or support Imam Ali (as). Acceptance or rejection is related to what the Companions say about Ali not what they say about Mu'awiyah. Regarding Bro. Wali's question, please refer to our translation of 180 questions to Imam al-Qasim (as) on the sister blog site. Your question is answered in #146.And Allah knows best!IRS
Brother IRS:A 12r on shiachat asked who do the Zaydis recognize as the Imam of the time. Since the ahadith states whoever fails to recognize the imam of the time dies from Jahilyah.
Bro ProAhlulBayt:There is no one person that the Zaydis collectivelly consider the imam of the time (imam az-Zaman). It would depend upon which Zaydi you ask. Some would say Sayyid al-Houthi, some would say others.As was mentioned in the 180 Replies text by Imam ar-Rassi (as), recognizing the imam is dependent upon knowing his specifications and qualifications--one of which is openly manifesting opposition to oppression. If an imam is said to be in hiding, how would one be expected to recognize him? And Allah knows best!IRS
Can you tell me the Zaydi position on Qiyas ? Do you have any narrations where the Ahlul Bayt (as) accepted it and rejected it ?
Bro ProAhlulBayt:Im sorry. i havent studied usul al-fiqh but as far as I know, qiyas refers to the derivation of law from implicit text as opposed to explicit text. There is a statement from Imam al-Hadi (as) in which he said that qiyas is not permissible ever. However, he as well as other imams used qiyas alot in their usul. Indeed, Imam al-Hadi's methodology employs alot of qiyas which is evident in texts such as Al-Ahkam and Al-Muntakhab. Maybe Imam al-Hadi's (as) statement is about using qiyas without text.For ex. the ruling concerning the distance that one must reach before shortening the prayers is derived from qiyas. And Allah knows best!IRS
Mashallah. Brother IRS. Your knowledge is vaster than i have anticipated.I ask allah to bless you with far greater.
Salamz! Thank you for the compliment but I dont think that my knowledge is vast at all! Superior knowledge is that which is gained at the feet of our scholars! A single sentence learned by transmitted knowledge is a lot better than volumes of books read by self-acquired knowledge! InshaAllah, we will soon be illuminated by the ilm coming from the unbroken sanad of our ulema in English! Energetic young brothers and sisters like yourselves will be able to study with our scholars, transmit it to the non-Arab world, and represent this deen and madhhab the way that it should be represented! InshaAllah, then the sun will shine from the West!And Allah knows best!IRS
SalaamI am really looking forward to that. For 1300 over years the Nawasib and Rawafid, have tried to crush the Zaydi movement. As a result, the Zaydis have been suppressed. The Mutazilla took another way out by choosing a passive path. Therefore, many Muslims became Mutazilla instead of Shia. Now in western world there is high appreciation for intellectual discussions. You won't be killed for expressing your views. Maybe the Zaydia can apply the Mutazilla example toward the Western world. Even in our Sunni world we have so many lazy Muslims. I was trying to get a hold of Ibn Arabi's works. Guess what ? Its the Western non-Muslims who have started projects on him. The main reason for that is because Ibn Arabi (ra) preached his ideas in Europe. Likewise Mawalana Rumi also shares the same level of merit.
why is zaydi so hard or dislike sufism?was there ever any zaydi sufi?I love studying zaydi works and teaching and really think they had been being suppress and intentionally out of light for many reasons"because when you study zaydi it turn on light that show what is being hidden or not reveal
ProAhlulBayt1 said...Brother IRS:Can Zaydis prove Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as) was a non-12r from the 12r Shia own sources ? I have a book on Shaykh Mufid written by a Western scholar who says Shaykh Mufid was first one to make this claim. The only problem is the 12r say Shaykh Saduq his teacher also made this claim too. Then again Shaykh Mufid was more knowledgeable then his own teacher since he had a Mutazilla teacher who he studied under. Anyway, since I am not fluent in Arabic I wasn't able to convince all the 12rs with full sources. How about the Zaydis ? How far have they gone in this area ? Also, can you tell me why the Sahaba did not apostate for rejecting Imam Ali (as) to be immediate successor, whereas the rest of the Ummah will apostate for rejecting the Mahdi's Calipae ?
you kind of confused me with mufids opinion. can you be more clear.
Brother Zabarah Are you aware that the 12rs believe that Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as) was a 12r and not a Zaydi Imam ? From what I read it was Shaykh Mufid who shifted the view on the Imam. However, since I don't speak Arabic I can't fully convince all the 12rs. Here is what he wrote and what they believe.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The Ithna 'Ashari sources do not believe that Zaid claimed imamate for himself. Shaykh Mufid states "However that was not his intention because he knew of the right of his brother, peace be on him, to the Imamate before him, and of his bequest of trusteeship (wasiyya) at his death to Abu 'Abd Allãh (i.e., Jafar as-Sadiq), peace be on him."(al-Irshad)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Also one of his teachers was a non-12r. He was a Mutazilli named Abu'l-Qasim al-Ka'bi al-Balkhi (ra). You can see how Shaykh Mufid managed to make radical changes in the 12rs aqeeda.
To Bigali, the question about Sufism was asked and answered in the July edition of "ask a zaidi". Here are the answers that were posted back then, hope you find them helpful. Imam Rassi Society said...If by "sufism" you mean purification of the soul, then Zaidism is not opposed to that! Indeed, many of our imams and scholars have attained what the sufis would call "wilayat" through spiritual excercises and gnosis (ma'rifa) of their Lord. As a result, some of them were able to do miracles! We refer to this as zuhd (indifference towards the dunya). Indeed, zuhd is a qualification for the imam. However, the ability to perform miracles is not a qualification. Miracles are just possible consequences of their spirituality. We have powerful duas and awrad from our imams and ulema that are sufficient for one on the spiritual path! We do need murshids or brotherhoods (turuq) to reach gnosis of our Lord!If by sufism you mean following a murshid or sheikh blindly, Zaidism is opposed to such! This is because, as brother Aws said, the greatest ni'ma is our minds and intellect. If we forsake our intellect to blindly follow some "sufi shaykh" or "pir sahib", we have no one to blame except ourselves if we are misguided!July 13, 2010 6:47 AM Imam Rassi Society said...Oh yeah, it must also be said that historically "Sufis" have played a role in the destabilization of the Zaidi imamate. For example, in the Yemeni consciousness, the Zaidis saw sufism as being equated with the Ottoman rule. So when the Ottomans dominated Yemen, the imams were a bit suspect of sufism.July 13, 2010 6:51 AM zaida said...Abdullah Hamidaddin said:On the question of Sufi tradition; the essence of the sufi tradition is not as thought to be connecting to God .. its essence is submission to a guru ... belief in his special powers, in particular powers to know you more than yourself .. considering inspiration as a valid source of knowledge, focusing on conscious-altering rhythmic rituals among others ... in that regard Zaydis didn’t have such practices.July 14, 2010 1:36 AM
Ma Salaam Thank you for writing me back so soon"i have made a mistake in the response in the last email i had send you"I had been a Muslim for over 30 years and i was a in the maliki school for fifteen"and than i became a jaferia for about ten or twelve years and now i am a zaydi and had study zaydism for about three months"my questions is do the zaydi use any of the books that the jaferia use or share the same books?and the zaydi do not say amin or amen?so what do they say after sura hamd? i read from the zaydi its better to pray on the earth?when they say pray on the earth do they mean the whole body or forehead? i like dua kamyal etc
The following discussion has been moved from the "Legitimacy of violence" page:From Pro ahlul bait:As for Imam Ali (as) there is no doubt that he is the rightful successor of Prophet (pbuh). Even after the calipahs took his position, it still makes him the successor by default. There are enough ahadith to indicate this. Whoever doubt this is misguided or misinformed. However, in the shia schools you have to believe this is explicit command. There is no room for implicit belief.The 3 calipahs are temporal representative of the Prophet (pbuh). In areas of Deen I wouldn't say all their ijihad is binding on the Sunni world. As for sinning, in the Mutazilla and Zaydia theology you are doomed even if you sin once and don't repent for it. For example if you lie and don't repent for that lie then you are doomed for hell. If a person lies to his parents in fear of being punished, isn't he or she in trouble, if they don't regret this sin ?October 14, 2010 1:46 PM ProAhlulBayt1 said...As for free will and determinism. The Mutazilla believed in total free will. On the contrary, Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as) said "the reality is neither predestination, nor absolute freewill, but the answer lies in the middle of the two."October 14, 2010 1:52 PM zabarah said...Implicit or explicit: is he devinly appointedif you fear punishment from your parents that you or your parents cant bare then allah will not punish on something humanbeings cant bare. and allah is always just! so if allah rule you from the people of hellfire than you are. and if you are from the people of heaven then you are. and allah is mercifull!Also, to be a person of major sin you have to do alkabair and insist on them. the ones that are mentioned in the quran.on free will and predestination issue: its enough to say that deeds we do that we will be rewarded for and punished for is our own doing.do you think that zaidies dont believe in qadar?12rs have changed throughtout generations on many issues. the only issue they havent changed on is the 12 imams. check their sources.just advice: dont mix mutazillah and zaidyah. and dont take information of one sect from another.October 14, 2010 3:29 PM ProAhlulBayt1 said...Forget the past 12rs/dozeners Shias. I am very well aware of their evolution. Shaykh Mufid and Shaykh Murtaza both had Mutazilla teachers. Also, Shaykh Tusi was initially a Sha'afi in fiqh. The 12rs have evolved, and we should tackle them on new issues. I found a great 12r Shia book store online with many valuable books. However, again these books are all in Arabic.http://www.fadakbooks.com/fiqhusulalfiqh.htmlThis store also has some Zaydi books.http://www.fadakbooks.com/zaidi.htmlSo far the 12rs are dismissing all the Zaydi books such as Al- Amali and Musnad Zayd. We should prove the case to be otherwise. As for Mutazilla like you said they are gone. May Allah reward them for their strong commitment, and may Allah forgive them for their errors. If Zaydis can deal with the latest issues of research then inshallah they will be on top.October 14, 2010 4:34 PM Zabarah said...What research are you talking about? can you please be more clear and specific on this issue.October 14, 2010 8:08 PM ProAhlulBayt1 said...SalaamI hope Sister Zaidi doesn't tell us to stop going off topic. Well the 12rs say the real Zaydis are the Jarudiyya sect. They say the Zaydis today are not the followers of Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as), but followers of Imam Hadi (as) instead. Next they dismiss Musnad Zayd and Al Amali. They call Abu Khalid `Amr b. Khalid a fabricator. So far I haven`t seen any Zaydi material which challenges the 12rs through ilm-e-rijal. Its always been an aql vs aql contest. With this match its always a never ending match. Also, in the end the Zaydis accepted Najh al Balgaha which is complied by a 12r. In the end, its seems like they have the upper hand.October 14, 2010 9:18 PM
Continuation of discussion about Imam Ali and Imam Zaid:zabarah said...whether nahj albalagha is compiled by a 12r is refutable. but i wont go into that detail.even if it was does it mean they are the right sect?we believe some sunnis source to be correct. do we give them the upper hand? alsahiffah alsijadia is compiled and kept by zaidi imams does that give us the upper hand?the truth of the matter is that you have think logically and chronologically. which sect have not changed in their core beliefs? which sect have inherited knowledge through ahlal bayt until today. most of old 12 scholers are non ahlulbayt. and remember hadith of the two weighty things. if 12 are right in your view do you believe in their last imam. do you believe that he talked when he was infant? do you believe that he is alive for 1300 years!?October 15, 2010 5:27 AM ProAhlulBayt1 said...Brother why don't you write details on Nahj al Balgha and pass it on to sister zaida. She will be enter it as a new post. As far as I know Syed Razi was a Rafidi Shia. For Sahifah Al Sajjadiyah, Shaykh Mufid says Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as) was a 12r. He then adds that he fought for the imamate of imam Jafar as Sadiq (as) not his own. If you can prove that all the narrators are zaydis instead of 12rs that would be great.The 12rs say the Jarudiyya sect were the real Zaydis. How do you refute that ? As for the 12th imam his existence this can be dismissed through ilm-e-rijal. However, if you use aql there are various way to prove his existence. In fact, many major Sufis have said he is alive and the real Mahdi. What Zaydis need to do is dismiss the 12rs through the process of ilm-e-rijal. Otherwise, this concept of aql will just go in circles. The 12rs have monopolized the concept of aql. However, they were refuted by a wahabis through textual basis.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6szlhjLUOsOctober 15, 2010 2:44 PM Zabarah said...do you read arabic? I have all that you need in arabic.October 15, 2010 7:17 PM ProAhlulBayt1 said...Sorry bro I don't. If I did, I would be very ahead in my research. The 12rs on the contrary, have translated a lot of material which they use to promote their sect. If we have the academic material translated it would be great.October 15, 2010 8:15 PM
Continuation of above discussion:Imam Rassi said...salaamz to all!To Bro ProAhlulBayt: I think that before we go any further, we must correct some of the misinformation that you have received about the Zaidis. (of course my comments will be in ALL CAPS).First you said: "I disagree with them and Zaydis in some areas such as eternal punishment for sinful Muslims. For example if I lied once intentionally, and I die without repenting then I am doomed for eternal punishment in hell."--AS THE BROTHER MENTIONED THIS IS A TOTAL MISUNDERSTANDING REGARDING THE ETERNAL FATE OF MAJOR SINNERS. THE IDEA IS THAT IF A PERSON PERSISTED IN MAJOR SINS (I.E. CONTINUED TO COMMIT MAJOR SINS UNTIL THEIR DEATH AND NOT REPENT) THIS PERSON WILL DWELL FOREVER IN HELLFIRE. MAY ALLAH SAVE US FROM THAT! THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS COMMITTING ONE SIN BEFORE ONE DIES. PLEASE REFER TO THE FOOTNOTES OF OUR TRANSLATION OF THE 180 QUESTIONS TO IMAM AR-RASSI (AS) AND YOU WILL SEE THAT THE ETERNALITY OF THE MAJOR SINNERS IS A DOCTRINE SUBSTANTIATED BY THE QUR'AN, PROPHETIC SUNNAH, AND IMAMS OF AHL AL-BAYT (AS). IF YOU STILL HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THIS DOCTRINE THEN IT IS BECAUSE OF YOUR OWN NAFS."As for Zaydis, they believe Imam Ali (as) was explicit divinely appointed. I believe his appointment is implicit. Therefore, I disqualify as a Zaydi."--THERE ARE SOME ZAYDIS THAT ASCRIBE TO THE IMLICIT THEORY. HOWEVER, THE MAJORITY SAY THAT THIS IS UNTENABLE BECAUSE AN ISSUE OF SUCH IMPORTANCE AS THE IMAMATE SHOULD NOT BE CONFINED TO INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATIONS. THEREFORE, IT IS LOGICAL THAT THE PROPHET, PEACE BE UPON HIM AND HIS PROGENY, MADE THE ISSUE CRYSTAL CLEAR. OTHERWISE, THIS WOULD ASCRIBE SOMETHING UNBEARABE TO OUR PROPHET."So far I haven`t seen any Zaydi material which challenges the 12rs through ilm-e-rijal."--AS THE BROTHER MENTIONED, IF YOU COULD READ ARABIC YOU WILL SEE THAT OUR IMAMS AND SCHOLARS HAVE CHALLENGED THE 12ERS THROUGH ILM AR-RIJAL. ONE OF OUR SCHOLARS, SAYYID ABDULLAH AD-DAYLAMI WROTE A WORK REFUTING THE 12ERS USING THEIR OWN SOURCES! I HEARD THAT HE WROTE A SERIES OF QUESTIONS AND POSED THEM TO THE SCHOLARS OF QUM AND HE HAS NOT YET RECEIVED A REPLY FROM THEM!Regarding the misguided statements of the 12ers, Sunnis, Wahabis, or any other group regarding the Zaydis, our imams and scholars have refuted them for a long time. It doesn't matter to us what the 12ers say about us! Just as it doesn matter to them what we say about them! Simply talking and debating is a circular process. Our sources wouldnt be authentic to them, their sources wouldnt be authentic to us! However, as the brother Zabarah said: there is only one sect that has faithfully adhered to the Book and the 'Itra. The other sects have been deficient in one or the other. And Allah knows best!IRSOctober 16, 2010 12:47 AM
I am aware of that. I am also aware that other 12r marjees have made many claims on Imam Zaid. som of which are:1. that he was fighting for his brother imamte2. that he was an Imam under an Imam3. That he was a wine drinker4. that he did not know about the divine appointment of his brother.I have discussed this issue many times with 12rs. if I provide proof from their marjas they said it has been lied about them. if I provide proof from sunnah they say they are nasabees and want to change the truth. and when we provide proof from our books they say we have changed them too. if we provide proof from the hadith of the prophet or the Quran they say it is not interpreted that way. the problem with 12rs is that they are always changing their beliefs on such issues to suite what they want to say. so what are we supposed to refute.
Just research their stance during Shaykh Mufid's era and before it. Can you prove that it was Shaykh Mufid who made this shift ? I posted my research on this subject. However, my proof are mostly based on Western sources. http://almajalis.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=12023Also, the Western source states Shaykh Mufid copied and pasted the seerah from the Zaydi scholar Abu al-Faraj Isfahani. Can you prove this ?
Brother Proahlulbayt1,I have researched your issue a little and I came across your Discussions on this subject. You have proof from their books, you have proof from western scholars, and you have proof from our books. What other proof do you need brother?This is one of the stances on the great Imam Zaid bin Ali PBUHProof 1الباقر قد فطن إلى ذلك، فقد روى القوم عنه أنه قال: سيخرج زيد أخي بعد موتي، ويدعو الناس إلى نفسه، ويخلع جعفراً ابني،ولا يلبث إلا ثلاثاً حتى يقتل ويصلب، ثم يحرق بالنار، ويذرى في الريح، ويمثل به مثلة ما مثل بها أحد قبلهProof 2إن زيداً سيدعو بعدي إلى نفسه، فدعه ولا تنازعه فإن" عمره قصير "
More proof ابن عقدة ، عن القاسم بن محمد بن الحسين ، عن عبيس بن هشام عن ابن جبلة ، عن علي بن المغيرة ، عن أبي الصباح قال : دخلت على أبي عبدالله عليه السلام فقال : ماورائك ؟ فقلت : سرور من عمك زيد خرج يزعم أنه ابن ستة وأنه قائم هذه الامة وأنه ابن خيرة الاماء فقال : كذب ليس هو كما قال إن خرج قتل .
Sorry, just to clarify these are proof of one of the 12rs stance on the great Imam Zaid bn Ali.They have changing views on him all the time. History cannot hide that he claimed Imamate and he was right to do it.
Brother can you translate that ? The proof I have doesn't give a direct source. Its just the Western writer who quotes another source which is written in German. The 12rs just looked at it and said its not true. What I need is a direct source where it proves that Shaykh Mufid copied and pasted from Abu al-Faraj Isfahani. I believe Shaykh Mufid admits this himself. How can you prove Shaykh Mufid copied the seerah of Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as) from the Zaydi scholar besides just making the claim ? Also tell me which scholar from the Muslim world show that Shaykh Mufid made this shift on Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as) ? I am sure the Western scholar must have gotten their research from somewhere. If you get that done then I will assist another brother works on to refutation on the 12rs. So far this video was made refute the 12rs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd-veV9mQzoThis video was made by the information passed by discussion which have taken place on al-majalis.
Also, if you have any books on the Zaydi ilm-e-rijal that would be great. For example the 12rs have this narration from their books. The prophet once looked at Zayd ibn Harithah, cried, and said " The martyr in the sake of Allah, The crucified of my people, The oppressed from my progeny, his name is thus." Then the prophet pointed at Zayd ibn Harithah and said " Come closer to me, your name became more dear to me because it is the same as my dear child (Zaid.)"However, the origin of this narration seems like a Zaydi/Sunni one. Can you prove this entire chain is a Zaydi and not a 12r one ? Do some research here on chain narrations on he seerah of Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as). Inshallah I will assist then spread this further.Forget these aql vs aql debates. They go nowhere. However, through ilm-e-rijal we can prove the opponents of the Zaydis wrong.
Brother ZabarahYou said you were the student of the Mujtahid imams in Yemen ? I strongly suggest you to use their assistance in these areas. Do not underestimate the 12rs. A lot of Sunnis and Zaydis become 12rs in the last 10 years. Also, Dr.Essam Ali El-Emad was a former Zaydi, now he is 12r. The extremes among them are dangerous. I remember 6 years ago, I joined shiachat. I was getting pounded. The only thing that stopped me from becoming a 12r at the time was their extreme hatred against non-12rs and the sahaba. In fact, they way these extremes behave looked as if they hated the other Muslims more than non-Muslims. This is no different that the wahabia. Anyway, after one year I met Syed Ninowy's student online, and then also followed Imam Al Asi's lecture. Alhamdulilah now the 12rs are fed up with me and requested me to leave shiachat.com. In fact, I managed to switch two 12r Shias into Sunnis. Sadly, my love for the 12 Imams caused me covert a former Sunni to a 12r. On the contrary, this brother is still not extreme like the others.
first thank you for your overstatment of me being a student of a mujtahid. I am a student but i dont think i am student of a mujtahid yet. although we do get lessons from them.Brother i am surprised you are saying they do have strong arguments. Usually when we discuss such matters they never have had proof of anysorts. I have always told them that i never will refuse the truth whatever it maybe. If 12r is the truth then I shall follow it, but they havent given any. zaidism is logical, zaidism has quranic evidence, and zaidism has hadith evidence.12rs are persistant and want to drill their ideals in you by force which is not acceptable.If you want hadith books for zaidyyah there are plenty. we just need to translate them. As for zaidi narations of Imam zaid there are plenty and I will post them here inshallah soon.
The hadith you just brought up is a zaidi hadith which I translated!
I am aware its a Zaydi hadith. However, the 12r are claiming it belongs to them. Therefore, we need to study the chains and prove them wrong by providing the details of ahadith transmitters. Maybe brother IRS can help us out.
but you said you got it from a 12r book. what book did you get it from?these are my exact translations???????!!!!!!
These are the books you are asking about. We have them in arabic. but maybe we will have them translated. _ كتاب / المجموع الفقهي والحديثي المسمى بـ(مسند الإمام زيد)المؤلف : الإمام الأعظم زيد بن علي (ع)http://126.96.36.199/books/bok143.zip2_ كتاب / تيسير المطالب في أمالي أبي طالبالمؤلف : الإمام الناطق بالحق أبي طالب يحيى بن الحسين الهارونيhttp://188.8.131.52/books/bok144.zip3 _ كتاب / درر الأحاديث النبوية بالأسانيد اليحيويةالمؤلف : جمعها / القاضي العلامة عبد الله مُحَمَّد بن حمزة بن أَبِي النجم الصعديhttp://184.108.40.206/books/bok145.zip4_ كتاب / النور الأسنى الجامع لأحاديث الشفاءالمؤلف : العلامة حمود بن عباس المؤيدhttp://220.127.116.11/books/bok146.zip5_ كتاب / المختار من صحيح الأحاديث والآثار ..من كتب الأئمة الأطهار ومحبيهم الأبرارالمؤلف : السيد العلامة محمد بن يحيى بن حسين الحوثيhttp://18.104.22.168/books/bok147.zip6_ كتاب / أمالي الإمام أحمد بن عيسىالمؤلف : الإمام أحمد بن عيسى (ع)http://22.214.171.124/books/bok148.zip7_ كتاب / الأمالي الاثنينيةالمؤلف : الإمام المرشد بالله يحيى بن الحسين بن إسماعيل الجرجاني الشجريhttp://126.96.36.199/books/bok149.zip8_ كتاب / الأمالي الخميسيةالمؤلف : الإمام المرشد بالله يحيى بن الحسين الشجريhttp://188.8.131.52/books/bok150.zip9_ كتاب / الأربعون حديثا السيلقيةالمؤلف : المحدث زيد بن عبد الله بن مسعود بن رفاعة الهاشميhttp://184.108.40.206/books/bok151.zip10_ كتاب / الأربعون حديثاً العلوية وشرحهاالمؤلف : القاضي العلامة شمس الدين جعفر بن أحمد بن عبد السلام(576هـ)http://220.127.116.11/books/bok152.zip11_ كتاب / الجامعة المهمة لأسانيد كتب الأئمةالمؤلف : الإمام المجتهد مجدالدين المؤيديhttp://18.104.22.168/books/bok153.zip12_ كتاب / الجامع الكافي في فقه الزيديةالمؤلف : الإمام الحافظ الشريف أبو عبد الله محمد بن علي بن عبد الرحمن العلويhttp://22.214.171.124/books/bok154.zip13_ كتاب / أصول الأحكام الجامع لأدلة الحلال والحرامالمؤلف : الإمام المتوكل على الله أحمد بن سليمان (ع)http://126.96.36.199/books/bok155.zip14 _ كتاب / إعلام الأعلام بأدلة الأحكامالمؤلف : السيد العلامة محمد بن حسن العجريhttp://188.8.131.52/books/bok156.zip15 _ كتاب / المنهج المنير تمام الروض النضيرالمؤلف : العلامة احمد بن محمد بن يحيى السياغيhttp://184.108.40.206/books/bok157.zip16_ كتاب / العتب الجميل على أهل الجرح والتعديلالمؤلف : السيد العلامة محمد بن عقيل باعلويhttp://220.127.116.11/books/bok119.zip17_ كتاب / تحرير الأفكار المؤلف : السيد العلامة المجتهد / بدرالدين بن أمير الدين الحوثيhttp://18.104.22.168/books/bok081.zip18_ كتاب / الزهري أحاديثه وسيرتهالمؤلف : السيد العلامة المجتهد / بدرالدين بن أمير الدين الحوثيhttp://22.214.171.124/books/bok086.zip19_ كتاب / مختصر في علوم الحديث ، منتزع من كتاب الفلك الدوارالمؤلف : السيد العلامة صارم الدين إبراهيم بن محمد الوزيراستخرجه وحَقَّقَه وعَلَّق عليه : محمد يحيى سالم عزانhttp://126.96.36.199/books/bok097.zip20_ كتاب / القول المبين في فضائل أهل البيت المطهرينالمؤلف : السيد العلامة محمد بن عبدالله بن سليمان العزيhttp://188.8.131.52/books/bok011.zip21 _ كتاب / الذكرالمؤلف : الإمام الحافظ محمد بن منصور المراديhttp://184.108.40.206/books/bok136.zip22_ كتاب / الغارة السريعة لردع الطليعةالمؤلف : السيد العلامة المجتهد / بدرالدين بن أمير الدين الحوثيhttp://220.127.116.11/books/bok182.zip 23_ كتاب / المناهيالمؤلف : الإمام المرتضى محمد بن الإمام الهادي يحيى بن الحسين (ع) .http://18.104.22.168/books/bok190.zip24_ كتاب / الرسالة البديعة المعلنة بفضائل الشيعةالمؤلف : العنسيhttp://22.214.171.124/books/bok183.zip
_ كتاب / المجموع الفقهي والحديثي المسمى بـ(مسند الإمام زيد)المؤلف : الإمام الأعظم زيد بن علي (ع)http://126.96.36.199/books/bok143.zip2_ كتاب / تيسير المطالب في أمالي أبي طالبالمؤلف : الإمام الناطق بالحق أبي طالب يحيى بن الحسين الهارونيhttp://188.8.131.52/books/bok144.zip3 _ كتاب / درر الأحاديث النبوية بالأسانيد اليحيويةالمؤلف : جمعها / القاضي العلامة عبد الله مُحَمَّد بن حمزة بن أَبِي النجم الصعديhttp://184.108.40.206/books/bok145.zip4_ كتاب / النور الأسنى الجامع لأحاديث الشفاءالمؤلف : العلامة حمود بن عباس المؤيدhttp://220.127.116.11/books/bok146.zip5_ كتاب / المختار من صحيح الأحاديث والآثار ..من كتب الأئمة الأطهار ومحبيهم الأبرارالمؤلف : السيد العلامة محمد بن يحيى بن حسين الحوثيhttp://18.104.22.168/books/bok147.zip6_ كتاب / أمالي الإمام أحمد بن عيسىالمؤلف : الإمام أحمد بن عيسى (ع)http://22.214.171.124/books/bok148.zip7_ كتاب / الأمالي الاثنينيةالمؤلف : الإمام المرشد بالله يحيى بن الحسين بن إسماعيل الجرجاني الشجريhttp://126.96.36.199/books/bok149.zip8_ كتاب / الأمالي الخميسيةالمؤلف : الإمام المرشد بالله يحيى بن الحسين الشجريhttp://188.8.131.52/books/bok150.zip9_ كتاب / الأربعون حديثا السيلقيةالمؤلف : المحدث زيد بن عبد الله بن مسعود بن رفاعة الهاشميhttp://184.108.40.206/books/bok151.zip10_ كتاب / الأربعون حديثاً العلوية وشرحهاالمؤلف : القاضي العلامة شمس الدين جعفر بن أحمد بن عبد السلام(576هـ)http://220.127.116.11/books/bok152.zip11_ كتاب / الجامعة المهمة لأسانيد كتب الأئمةالمؤلف : الإمام المجتهد مجدالدين المؤيديhttp://18.104.22.168/books/bok153.zip12_ كتاب / الجامع الكافي في فقه الزيديةالمؤلف : الإمام الحافظ الشريف أبو عبد الله محمد بن علي بن عبد الرحمن العلويhttp://22.214.171.124/books/bok154.zip13_ كتاب / أصول الأحكام الجامع لأدلة الحلال والحرامالمؤلف : الإمام المتوكل على الله أحمد بن سليمان (ع)http://126.96.36.199/books/bok155.zip14 _ كتاب / إعلام الأعلام بأدلة الأحكامالمؤلف : السيد العلامة محمد بن حسن العجريhttp://188.8.131.52/books/bok156.zip15 _ كتاب / المنهج المنير تمام الروض النضيرالمؤلف : العلامة احمد بن محمد بن يحيى السياغيhttp://184.108.40.206/books/bok157.zip16_ كتاب / العتب الجميل على أهل الجرح والتعديلالمؤلف : السيد العلامة محمد بن عقيل باعلويhttp://220.127.116.11/books/bok119.zip17_ كتاب / تحرير الأفكار المؤلف : السيد العلامة المجتهد / بدرالدين بن أمير الدين الحوثيhttp://18.104.22.168/books/bok081.zip18_ كتاب / الزهري أحاديثه وسيرتهالمؤلف : السيد العلامة المجتهد / بدرالدين بن أمير الدين الحوثيhttp://22.214.171.124/books/bok086.zip19_ كتاب / مختصر في علوم الحديث ، منتزع من كتاب الفلك الدوارالمؤلف : السيد العلامة صارم الدين إبراهيم بن محمد الوزيراستخرجه وحَقَّقَه وعَلَّق عليه : محمد يحيى سالم عزانhttp://126.96.36.199/books/bok097.zip20_ كتاب / القول المبين في فضائل أهل البيت المطهرينالمؤلف : السيد العلامة محمد بن عبدالله بن سليمان العزيhttp://188.8.131.52/books/bok011.zip21 _ كتاب / الذكرالمؤلف : الإمام الحافظ محمد بن منصور المراديhttp://184.108.40.206/books/bok136.zip22_ كتاب / الغارة السريعة لردع الطليعةالمؤلف : السيد العلامة المجتهد / بدرالدين بن أمير الدين الحوثيhttp://220.127.116.11/books/bok182.zip 23_ كتاب / المناهيالمؤلف : الإمام المرتضى محمد بن الإمام الهادي يحيى بن الحسين (ع) .http://18.104.22.168/books/bok190.zip24_ كتاب / الرسالة البديعة المعلنة بفضائل الشيعةالمؤلف : العنسيhttp://22.214.171.124/books/bok183.zip
From the 12rs books the earliest seerah on Imam Zayd bin Ali (as) are done by Ibn Babuwayh and Mufid. Refer to Ibn Babuwayh's book al Amali and Shaykh Mufid book Kitab al Irshad. Here is Ibn Babuwayh's book al Amali online.http://www.alkadhum.org/other/mktba/hadith/amali/index.htmhttp://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/10/no1000.html I couldn't find Kitab al Irshad online. Maybe you can look it up.The 12rs books also have chains in them. For example for this tradition.On the authority of Abi Ja‘far Muhammad ibn ‘Ali who said that the Prophet (P) said to [his grandson al-Husayn] : “From your progeny there will be a man by the name of Zayd who will on the Day of Judgement along with his supporters bypass many front rank fellows of Paradise. They all will enter Paradise without scrutiny.The Zaydi chain by Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani in Al-Maqatel (130) through the narratives of ‘Ali ibn al-‘Abbas, Isma‘il ibn Is-haq al-Rashedi, Muhammad ibn Dawud ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar and his father, Jaber al-Ja‘fi, and Abu Ja‘far.In the 12rs book al Amali with this chain.: Ahmad ibn Harun al-Fami, Muhammad ibn ‘Abdillah ibn Ja‘far al-Himyari and his father, Muhammad ibn al-Husayn ibn Abi al-Khattab, Husayn ibn ‘Alwan, ‘Amr ibn Thabet, and Dawud ibn al-Jabbar.
Here are some of the transmitters of this hadith. I need time to find them all! and translate them.رواه الإمام الناصر الأطروش كما في كتاب المحيط بالإمامة (خ) تحت التحقيق، ورواه الحافظ العلوي كما ذكره عنه الإمام المرشد بالله في الأمالي الإثنينية، وأخرجه بطرق أخرى، كما رواه الإمام محمد بن المطهر في المنهاج (خ) تحت التحقيق، والإمام الحسن بن بدر الدين في أنوار اليقين، وأخوه الأمير الحسين في الينابيع، والإمام الهادي بن إبراهيم الوزير في هداية الراغبين (خ) تحت التحقيق.قال السيد: أخبرنا محمد، قال: حدثنا الحسين بن جعفر، قال: وحدثنا أبو الحسين أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى البزار قراءة من لفظه، قالا: حدثنا هارون بن عيسى الصيرفي ملول أبو محمد، قال: حدثنا بكار بن محمد بن شعبة بن دحان بن ثوبان أبو مالك البصري، قال: حدثني أبي محمد بن شعبة بن دحان، قال: حدثني بكر بن عبدالملك بن وائل الأعنفبصري سكن اليمامة، وكان رجلا صالحا، عن طارق بن شهاب.عن حذيفة بن اليمان، قال: نظر رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم- إلى زيد بن حارثة، فقال: ((المقتول في الله، والمصلوب في أمتي والمظلوم من أهل بيتي سمي هذا -وأشار بيده إلى زيد بن حارثة-، فقال: أدن مني يا زيد، زادك اسمك عندي حبا، فأنت سمي الحبيب من أهل بيتي)).وبه قال: أخبرنا الشريف أبوعبد الله محمد بن علي بن الحسن بن علي بن الحسين بن عبد الرحمن بن القاسم بن محمد البطحاني الحسيني الكوفي بقراءتي عليه بها، قال: أخبرنا أبو طالب محمد بن الحسين القرشي المقري، وزيد بن محمد بن مضاية المؤدب، وأحمد بن محمد بن مطيع الخزاعي الصانع قراءة عليهم، قالوا: أخبرنا علي بن عبد الرحمن بن عيسى الكاتب قراءة عليه، قال: حدثنا محمد بن إبراهيم العامري، قال: حدثنا حسين بن نصر، قال: حدثنا خالد بن عيسى العكلي، عن حصين بن المخارق، عن شريك بن عبد الله، عن قيس بن مسلم، عن طارق بن شهاب.عن حذيفة بن اليمان، قال: قال رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم- : ((خير الأولين والآخرين المقتول في الله، المصلوب في أمتي، المظلوم من أهل بيتي،سمي هذا))، ثم ضم زيد بن حارثة إليه، ثم قال: ((يا زيد لقد زادك اسمك عندي حبا فأنت سمي الحبيب من أهل بيتي)).وبه قال: أخبرنا الشريف أبو عبد الله، قال: حدثنا القاضي أبو بكر، أحمد بن محمد بن أحمد بن خالد الدينوري قدم حاجا سنة تسعين وثلاثمائة، قال: حدثنا أبو الحسن علي بن محمد بن عامر النهاوندي، قال: حدثنا أبو العباس أحمد بن خالد بن حبان، قال: أخبرني عبد الرحمن بن القاسم، قال: حدثني نصر بن مزاحم، عن شريك، عن شريك بن مخارق، عن طارق بن شهاب.عن حذيفة بن اليمان أن النبي - صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم- نظر إلى زيد بن حارثة، فقال: ((المقتول في الله والمظلوم من أهل بيتي والمصلوب في أمتي سمي هذا)) وأشار إلى زيد بن حارثة، ثم قال: ((أدن مني يا زيد، زادك اسمك عندي حبا فأنت سمي الحبيب من أهل بيتي)).وبه قال: أخبرنا شيخنا أبو سعد إسماعيل بن علي بن الحسين بقراءتي عليه، قال: حدثنا أبو الحسين الحسن بن علي بن محمد بن جعفر الوبري بقراءتي عليه في (خان الفرايين)، قال: حدثنا القاضي أبوبكر محمد بن عمر بن محمد بن سالم بن البراء بن سبرة الجعابي الحافظ قراءة عليه، قال: حدثني أبو الحسنعلي بن موسى الغطفاني، قال: حدثنا الحسن بن علي بن بزيغ، قال: حدثنا إسماعيل بن أبان، عن عمرو بن حريث، عن برذعة وهو ابن عبد الرحمن البناني.عن أنس، قال: قال النبي - صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم-: ((يقتل من ولدي رجل يدعى زيدا بموضع يعرف بالكناسة، يدعو إلى الحق، يتبعه عليه كل مؤمن)).وبه قال: أخبرنا شيخنا أبو سعد، قال: حدثنا أبو الحسين الحسن بن علي الوبري، قال: حدثنا أبوبكر محمد بن عمر الجعابي.I will translate it for you at a later time.
Take your time brother. Inshallah in the future, we will use this material to defend al Zaydia.
Salam alaykoumDo Zaydis believe in al-Dajjal?
Thanks for your question Ali. I'll put it in the November edition of "Ask a Zaidi".